Dr. Joshua Herring, host of The Optimistic Curmudgeon, returns to the show to help us review Chapter 2 of “The Abolition of Man” and to help us understand “The Way”…
Click here to download audio for S9E17: “The Abolition of Man – Chapter 2 Review”
Show Notes
Quote-of-the-Week
The Innovator attacks traditional values (the Tao) in defence of what he at first supposes to be (in some special sense) ‘rational’ or ‘biological’ values. But as we have seen, all the values which he uses in attacking the Tao, and even claims to be substituting for it, are themselves derived from the Tao… If the Tao falls, all his own conceptions of value fall with it. Not one of them can claim any authority other than that of the Tao. Only by such shreds of the Tao as he has inherited is he enabled even to attack it.
C. S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man (The Tao)
Introduction
Welcome friends to Pints With Jack! This month we’ve completed the reading of “The Abolition of Man”, Chapter 2. The book is quite dense and so, like last month with Chapter 1, today we are having a review episode on Chapter 2.
Guiding us along the Way today Dr. Joshua Herring…
Biography
Dr. Herring is a former guest-of-the-show. He is professor of classical education and humanities at Thales College in Wake Forest, North Carolina, where he teaches liberal arts courses and directs the Certificate in Classical Education Philosophy program. He also hosts The Optimistic Curmudgeon podcast and is the author of the forthcoming book, “Sons of Adam, Daughters of Eve: C. S. Lewis’s Images of Gender”.
Chit-Chat
Q. You’re a busy chap! You’ve already done a livestream today! So please tell the listeners what you’ve been up to since you were last on the show…
- Last semester he got to teach a Great Books class that focused on the Renaissance Era to the present day. Some of the books included “The Faerie Queene” and “Till We Have Faces”.
- He’s been excited to see school choice and classical education expand across the world in recent years. Unfortunately, that can’t be said of the UK…
- There is actually a classic Montessori school opening on the coast of Portugal this year.
- His book should be releasing soon after a long hiatus!
Toast
Q. I’m out of alcohol and my six-month-old and two-year old have decided to become nocturnal so I have drunk far too much caffeine so far today, so I’ve switched to Chrysanthemum tea (very appropriate considering we’re talking about the Tao). How about yourself?
- Dr. Herring is sipping on Woodford Reserve.
- I’d like to toast our new Patreon supporter, Jessica Van Hoy. Since we’re talking about The Way today, I thought as a toast I would read lines from a poem by St. John Henry Newman (you may know it as a hymn):
Lead, Kindly Light, amid the encircling gloom,
St. John Henry Newman, The Pillar of the Cloud
Lead Thou me on;
The night is dark, and I am far from home,
Lead Thou me on.
Keep Thou my feet;
I do not ask to see the distant scene;
one step enough for me.
- May you always stay close to the Way. Cheers!
Discussion
01. “Personal History with Abolition”
Q. First of all, a few preliminaries… What’s your own history with “The Abolition of Man?”
- Dr. Herring’s first encounter with Abolition happened at some point during his time at Hillsdale College. Later on, he was asked to put together a talk at a teacher’s conference, where he drew from Abolition. He also drew on the book for his dissertation, and an article in an 80th anniversary edition of Sehnsucht.
- It’s a book he frequently returns to, especially since it’s one of the first books in the philosophy certificate program. The class is about building a philosophy off of western tradition, and Abolition is a great way to introduce people to Plato’s ideas of human nature.
02. “Summary of Chapter 2”
Q. As we’ve been working through Abolition, each episode I’ve been providing a summary of the argument so far. How would you summarize Chapter 2 and what would you say is the core argument?
- Like “Mere Christianity”, Abolition is like a crescendo, with each subsequent chapter building on the other.
- Chapter 1 focused on the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. Chapter 2 builds the argument that knowledge of morality and truth is objective.
- These laws of objective morality are perceivable, and everyone begins from the premise that these laws exist.
- You can’t arrive at the laws through reason alone. You have to practice them and watch as living in a moral code bears fruit.
- There is no neutral stance or separate inherent moral code from the Tao; the only other option one could take is to reject morality altogether.
- Lewis argues that every culture throughout time has unintentionally collectively agreed on a few of these moral premises. The Tao has not been constrained by geography either: everyone from east to west followed a similar set of principles. These laws exist outside of these cultures.
- For example, you have a special duty to your own children that others don’t share.
- Another would be that children should respect and obey their parents and elders.
- Tying it back to chapter 1, Lewis seems to be arguing that through their miseducation growing up, some people have had their access to the Tao obstructed. These people have become “men without chests”.
- Meanwhile, a well formed man has inherited the Tao through his education, and seeks out moral truths throughout his life.
- According to Lewis, those who claim that they have another source of value than the natural law are lying or have some ulterior motive.
- They’re either cherrypicking or trying to innovate, and neither works in the end.
03. “Destruction of Society”
Q. Lewis begins the chapter by saying that “The practical result of education in the spirit of The Green Book must be the destruction of the society which accepts it.”. We never really talked about this on the show. How do you think Lewis might defend this claim?
- Lewis’s prophecy is being fulfilled in real time. Many of our traditional social institutions have begun to change or break apart, including the family, and history. Instead we have many “options”, though most of them aren’t nearly as good.
- It is no longer a given that people will get married or start their own families. Instead, we’ve introduced and accepted homosexuality, which doesn’t lend itself towards family formation.
- History has also been rewritten in favor of alternative narratives – such as the 1619 Project – shifting the foundation of what we understand to be true. Instead of America being founded on revolution and independence, it was formed by slavery.
- Another author picked up on this not a decade after Abolition was written. Dr. Herring pointed out that in Robert Nesbit’s 1953 work “The Quest for Community”, families were no longer a bulwark of society in the way they once were, and people weren’t incentivized to have one.
- When you reject those foundations, society begins to devour itself. And even when those foundational institutions remain, they are not nearly as important to us as they ought to be.
- Some of these problems that pop up include:
- Birth rate and marriage decline
- Mental health issues
- Deaths of despair
- Some of these problems that pop up include:
Q. Couldn’t the rejection of the Tao simply lead to a new world? Why does it lead to destruction?
- The world is not constructivist. We can’t just remake the rules of the game.
- This gets into the Philosophy of education, which is divided into a few different camps:
- Constructivist: knowledge is built through our actions and behaviors. Reality is malleable, and our ability to change it is near endless.
- Perennialist: education is about helping students encounter truths that have always been true throughout all of history. Reality is a given, and our ability to alter it toward our ends is limited.
- Dr. Herring argues that the predominant view today is the constructivist view.
- This shows up frequently in politics and economics.
- One example is modern monetary theory, where fiscal policy is at the whim of whoever is in charge. This often leads to simply printing more money to solve our problems!
- Another example is family formation. Today, surrogacy is a booming industry. Dr. Herring referenced Katie Faust from Them Before Us, who advocates for children’s right to be raised by their biological mother and father.
- This shows up frequently in politics and economics.
04. “Really subjectivist?”
Q. Is there really such a thing as a subjectivist? I ask because Lewis points out that, despite what they say, the authors of “The Green Book” are trying to shape society in a particular way, which they must think it “good” in at least some sense?
- Gaius and Titius are not subjectivists, because they are trying to assert their own worldview as something others should accept as their own. They are also trying to deny that values exist at all (which they can’t do), rather than simply saying that all the matters are a person’s own whims and preferences.
- Though there are objective realities and boundaries, there is immense freedom within the Tao. But when you replace the Tao with your own subjective values (either through forcing others or falling prey to your own desires), that is a form of tyranny.
05. “The Tao”
Q. The concept of “The Tao” was introduced in Chapter 1 and, given that it’s the title of the chapter, it’s clearly important in Chapter 2. If I had to pick one thing which causes people to trip up in Abolition it’s this concept of the Tao, so perhaps we should unpack a little more to make it really clear… so, what is it? Why do you think Lewis settles on this term rather than any other to describe this concept?
- Most likely, Lewis, chose “Tao” because “Natural Law” is a loaded phrase for academics. If he were to use a western framework, he would be accused of having a Christian bias, and dismissed, because the academics would assume that natural law doesn’t apply to non-western or non-Christian peoples. By using an eastern term, Lewis avoids pigeonholing himself, and shows that the moral framework he’s speaking about extends to all times and places.
- Natural law is especially Catholic coded, and Lewis might have been accused of leaning too much in that direction. He never did swim the Tiber though.
- Next season, we will have an episode on Lewis as an Anglican!
- Natural law is especially Catholic coded, and Lewis might have been accused of leaning too much in that direction. He never did swim the Tiber though.
06. “Replacing the Tao”
Q. Lewis describes various attempts to replace the Tao: utilitarian, reason, and instinct. Why do each of these fail?
- First, instinct.
- Lewis interprets instinct as the inclination to do the moral thing. He uses the example of dulce et decorum est, or “it is sweet and fitting to die for one’s country”, to make his point. After all, why defend your country – or your own home for that matter – in the name of a foolish sentiment?
- Some argue that this instinct is rooted in a desire to protect one’s progeny. However, this isn’t present in everyone – Lewis himself admits that he doesn’t like children that much (surprising coming from a children’s author!), something he considers a personal fault.
- Next up, reason.
- He argues that the principles of ethical behavior are something you see and perceive, not something you reason your way to.
- There are many things that we do that are by all accounts, not reasonable, and a lot of things that we do that seem to defy reason. Sin is the best example of violating reason, but from a moral perspective, saving someone’s life in a dangerous situation goes against reason.
- Finally, utilitarianism.
- Utilitarianism asserts that the most practical option is the moral option. However, so what if something is practical? Many “practical” things could still end in horrible consequences.
[H]e might say that the real value lay in the utility of such sacrifice to the community.‘Good’ he might say, ‘means what is useful to the community.’ But of course the death of the community is not useful to the community – only the death of some of its members. What is really meant is that the death of some men is useful to other men.
C. S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man, The Tao
- There are nearly always hidden assumptions in utilitarianism that need to be probed.
- Utilitarianism is on full display in “Out of the Silent Planet”, where Ransom translates and dissects Weston’s glorious sounding speeches down to their raw meaning, that he means to dominate and kill.
- Ultimately, what Lewis is asking is, absent traditional values, how do we produce a people who understand morality and self sacrifice on behalf of others? You can’t. Lewis calls this close examination of different modes of thought the “experimentum crucis”.
07. “The Source of the Tao”
Q. Lewis says that “The principles of the Tao have to be our starting premisses – they cannot be reasoned to as conclusions”. This seems rather a rather shocking claim. How can this be justified? Isn’t this the Sharpshooter Fallacy?
- The point Lewis is trying to make is that all thought has a starting place.
- Take children, for example. They don’t learn language from nowhere; they learn from observing their parents, siblings, and other people around them.
- The Tao is also not a very nitty gritty detailed philosophy. It is a basic moral philosophy to begin on, one that all rational human beings hold as true. Without the Tao, you can’t go anywhere.
- Take the Constitution, for instance. In the preamble, the “truths” listed are held as “self-evident”. It might be hard to argue for them on their own, so the founders began with the assumption that everyone agreed on those base principles.
- If you start with no moral precepts, you are not better off, but worse.
You cannot go on ‘seeing through’ things for ever. The whole point of seeing through something is to see something through it. It is good that the window should be transparent, because the street or garden beyond it is opaque. How if you saw through the garden too? It is no use trying to ‘see through’ first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To ‘see through’ all things is the same as not to see.
C. S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man (The Abolition of Man)
Q. Jack says that, while he’s a theist, he’s not going to talk about the origin of the Tao… but what other options are there really?
- Really there are none. It seems absurd to say that something as complex and deeply rooted as the moral fabric of humanity just evolved from ambiguity, rather than having always existed.
08. “Development in the Tao”
Q. What do you make of Lewis’ comments about how the Tao can develop, but this must be organic and from within? How can we know if something is an organic change or surgical?
- You can tell by following the Tao yourself.
- It’s like being immersed in a river. A river is tactile, and it’s easy to tell what is a part of a river and what is just something being carried by the current. You can also manipulate the waters.
- Dr. Herring offered real life examples of an organic and surgical change:
- England’s abolition of slavery
- Built on a Biblical understanding of humanity being built in the image of God.
- Surgical: Obergefell
- A legal decision that replaced the traditional understanding of marriage going back to antiquity.
- England’s abolition of slavery
09. “Practical Application”
Q. What do you think are the practical applications of this chapter, particularly regarding education?
- Educators are to be channels for passing on the Tao. Teachers should instruct children in moral practices and draw them to the good, true, and beautiful through tradition and art. In Lewis’s own words…
The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but to irrigate deserts.
C. S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man
Wrap Up
More Information
- You can find Dr. Herring on the Thales College site, or follow him on LinkedIn, Facebook, and X. Listen to his podcast The Optimistic Curmudgeon on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
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