S8E34 – TWHF – “Till We Have Faces Primer”, After Hours with Andrew, David, and Matt

What advice do you have for someone who is about to read “Till We Have Faces” for the first time? The gang respond…

S8E34: “Till We Have Faces Primer”, After Hours with Andrew, David, and Matt (Download)

Show Notes

Introduction

Quote-of-the-Week

What pleased me enormously in your letter was the bit about Till We Have Faces,
for I think it far and away my best book but it has, with the critics and the public,
been my one great failure: an absolute ‘flop’.
No one seems to have the slightest idea what I’m getting at in it.

Letter to Audrey Sutherland, April 28, 1960)

Chit Chat

• July, we enter the last month of season eight. Though there were going to be a few more months – including an after hours month and a Charles Williams month – but time ran short with Matt’s wedding at the beginning of the season, and David’s new baby at its end.
• We will have our season finale as per usual, but first, we want to address something brought up by Matt during the last Common Room session. He suggested that we compile the definitive primer for someone who is about to read “Till We Have Faces”, which is what we will be discussing today.
• Andrew’s first copy of “Till We Have Faces” was gifted to him by Linford Detweiler from the band Over the Rhine. Reading it for the first time, the story did not click for him… until it did. He calls it the “Till We Have Faces whiplash”.
• As for life updates, Matt’s life is all work, while Andrew’s life is all interviews. His last day at Church of the Messiah was June 15th, and he preached on Trinity Sunday. As the episode was recorded before his last day, David encouraged him to reference Lutheran Satire during his sermon.

• Vale! David is on day 96 of his Latin Duolingo streak. He has also been recording many interviews, so be on the lookout for Half Pint episodes soon! He also requests prayers for his wife Marie, who will have their son via C-section in July.

Toast

• Andrew was drinking Cafe Ole Taste of San Antonio coffee out of his Beijing mug.
• Matt had Athletic ESB from Athletic Brewing Company, and was enjoying it in a Pints with Jack laser-etched glass.
• Following suit, David was enjoying Athletic Brewing’s Downwinder.

• They toasted Athletic Brewing. Well done, cheers!

Discussion

01. “General Thoughts”

Q. What are your opening thoughts about approaching this work?

• Matt told readers to give themselves grace while reading it for the first time. It is completely normal to struggle and be confused, and there is no need to beat yourself up over it. Allegedly (according to others), subsequent reads unlock new insights and reveal the book more fully.
• David asked people on the PWJ Slack channel their thoughts.

Read it once for the story and twice to start to understand.

Sarah Mikhail, Slack

Be prepared to read it twice. That’s practical advice but it also tells you what you’re in for.
Probably the most important fact that would have helped me to know is that Lewis considered paganism “pre-Christian.” And he considered paganism closer to Christianity, and thus closer to the truth, than modern secularism. That might soften the blow for people familiar with Lewis’s typical Christian or Christian allegorical setting.
I would share some common responses to the book, namely, people feel “whiplash”, and many people feel like “I know that meant something but I’m not sure what.” Even Lewis scholars have that experience. Not uncommonly.
If as you’re reading along you start to get the feeling that the novel is taking place on several levels simultaneously, yes it is. Strap in and enjoy the ride.
Finally, you might just be reading the best piece of literature that’s ever been written. And no, my name is not Andrew Lazo.

JK, Slack

• Andrew defended the difficult nature of the book, because, like physics, it is trying to explore the nature of the universe. And, given that this is Lewis’ self-proclaimed “culminative work”, it isn’t going to be easy! It is intentionally complex. Matt described also struggling with some of Lewis’ other works, such as “The Four Loves”.
• Another factor to consider is that the planetary nature of Narnia described in Michael Ward’s “Planet Narnia” was not discovered until nearly 50 years after its publication.
• David suggested that readers approach the book with as few preconceptions as possible. It is not like Narnia, or the Ransom trilogy, or his apologetic works. In addition – though this might counter the advice given later in this podcast – don’t spend all of your time psychoanalysing it. Enjoy it for the story that it is. IN the words of Lewis scholar Bruce Edwards, “read the lines before trying to read in between the lines.”

02. “Other Reading”

Q. When should it be read in your Lewis reading?

• For the average Lewis reader, Matt recommends starting with a different book, because many of the novels in Lewis’ corpus are more easily digestible. He suggested reading “The Four Loves” and “The Screwtape Letters” before it, because TWHF is very connected to these.
• Andrew doesn’t believe that it is wrong to read it first, so long as your approach is correct. It is meant to be read cumulatively, and with the knowledge that any other knowledge of Lewis will help you.
• David also asked PWJ Slackers their thoughts.

We read this in my Western Civ class which is mostly 10th-11th grade students. After 3 years, I have yet to have a student who didn’t fall in love with it! Most haven’t read Lewis; however, we read Greek myth prior to this to set the tone. We do a deep dive into the text over three weeks.

Annie Nardone, Slack

• As the dissenting voice, David strongly urges first time Lewis readers to not begin with “Till We Have Faces”. There are many “mines” laid throughout the novel, and he wants to make sure that the book’s difficulty doesn’t turn away people from the rest of Lewis’ works. He suggests reading “The Great Divorce”, as it explores many themes found in “Till We Have Faces”, but in a much more apparent way.
• There are also several essays Lewis wrote that might help prepare people for their first reading of TWHF, including “God in the Dock”, “On Forgiveness”, “Miserable Offenders”, “Lilies that Fester”, “Myth Became Fact”, and “Petitionary Prayer: A Problem Without An Answer”. He also posited “The Seeing Eye”, “The Language of Religion”, and “Christian Apologetics”. Andrew also suggested “An Experiment in Criticism” and the book “Mere Christianity”. Given all of the recommended reads, it’s easy to see how TWHF is a cumulative read.

We may [reverently] divide religions, as we do soups, into ‘thick’ and ‘clear’. By Thick I mean those which have orgies and ecstasies and mysteries and local attachments: Africa is full of Thick religions. By Clear I mean those which are philosophical, ethical and universalizing: Stoicism, Buddhism, and the Ethical Church are Clear religions. Now if there is a true religion it must be both Thick and Clear: for the true God must have made both the child and the man, both the savage and the citizen, both the head and the belly….”

C. S. Lewis, Christian Apologetics

03. “Focus”

Q. What should you pay attention to?

• Andrew argues that reading TWHF is like looking into a mirror. Pay attention to your own feelings and experiences as you follow it.
• David added to take note of what you are told vs what you observe. In particular, pay attention whenever love is discussed or expressed, because that will be important.

Q. What should you not worry about?

Ignore nothing, pay attention to everything! “There’s not a comma out of place.” It’s all “Chekhov’s gun” everywhere the whole way through 🙂

JK, Slack

• David reiterated the warning at the beginning to just enjoy the book the first read, and save the deep analysis for later. Focus on Oruals experience, not Lewis’ intentions.

04. “The Myth”

Q. When should you read the myth itself?

Some people say it’s helpful to have read the myth of Cupid and Psyche before reading this. I disagree for two reasons: (1) C. S. Lewis included it, himself, in the afterword, not the preface, and so I think he wants you to read it after. (2) The story is so different, I personally believe if anything having that myth beforehand might distract you from THIS story. This story stands on its own, even if there never was a Cupid and Psyche myth. And perhaps how this story differs from the original myth is the most important part.

JK, Slack

• David’s personal suggestion is to read the myth of Cupid and Psyche between parts one and two. This helps to approach the story in a blind and unbiased way, while adding context for some confusing aspects of the end of the book.
• Andrew disagreed, saying that readers have to read the afterward first, because the subtitle of the novel is “A Myth Retold”. Without this summary, you don’t have context.

05. “What is Love?”

Q. What are some of the key themes or “aha” moments that makes the message clear?

• Understanding that this novel is a more complex adaptation of “The Four Loves” is what makes this key. Orual’s love is possessive. But Andrew claimed that not only has Orual made an idol out of love, but herself. She even begins the book by taking on the divine name: I am.

I am old now and have not much to fear from the anger of gods [Eros and Aphrodite, the gods of love]. I have no husband nor child, nor hardly a friend, through whom they can hurt me. 

C. S. Lewis, Orual, Till We Have Faces

• It is also crucial to understand that Orual is more than just an untrustworthy narrator; she is intentionally deceptive to others as well as herself. Between each section of the book, she gradually learns to attempt to tell the truth, and realising that she cannot find the answer she is looking for within herself, but instead in God, who is love.

“I ended my first book with the words ‘no answer.’ I know now, Lord, why you utter no answer. You are yourself the answer. Before your face questions die away. What other answer would suffice? Only words, words; to be led out to battle against other words.”

C. S. Lewis, Orual, Till We Have Faces

• We can never find the answer within ourselves, as Lewis explained in “Mere Christianity”.

To become new men means losing what we now call ‘ourselves.’ Out of ourselves, into Christ, we must go.

C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, The New Men

• This was exactly what Lewis himself had to learn to do when he converted to theism, as he lays out in his autobiography, “Surprised by Joy”.

That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England. I did not then see what is now the most shining and obvious thing; the Divine humility which will accept a convert even on such terms.

C. S. Lewis, Surprised by Joy

• More important than our love for God is God’s love for us. Throughout the novel, Orual laments the tragedy of her life, and how unfair the gods of love are. It is only at the end that she begins to see the kindness they have treated her with.

Q. Is Orual’s perception of love distorted in the beginning because of her wounds and disadvantages?

• We have all had experiences where it felt as though the world was unfair, but in the end, when the situation worked itself out, it made you a better person. Lewis experienced this himself when no one would attend his Cambridge lectures, saying that the poor attendance was probably “frightfully good for me”. This is not God letting us down; it is him giving us a better good than we could have imagined.
• Orual had significant trauma throughout her life. However, she turned her legitimate suffering into justification for selfishness and posessiveness, rather than uniting it to God, Who suffered for us. God sometimes allows suffering so a greater good may come of it, and occasionally for corrective purposes as well.

I am sure that God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait.

C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

06. “Transforming Hearts”

Q. What are the key scenes that show Orual’s changing heart? When does God start to intervene?

• The gods had loved her all along. If it weren’t for her hardships, other things in her life would never have happened. For example, she would never have been made queen if she grew into an attractive woman, because she would have been married off. In her reign, she did much for her people, and her reputation was good.
• One of the most important moments in the book was when Orual walked up the mountain of the god of love to bury Psyche, who was offered to the gods as a sacrifice. In the midst of her sorrow, she heard a voice that was not from her subconscious…

And my struggle was this. You may well believe that I had set out sad enough; I came on a sad errand. Now, flung at me like frolic or insolence, there came as if it were a voice—no words—but if you made it into words it would be, ‘Why should your heart not dance?’ It’s the measure of my folly that my heart almost answered, ‘Why not?’ I had to tell myself over like a lesson the infinite reasons it had not to dance. My heart to dance? Mine whose love was taken from me, I, the ugly princess who must never look for other love, the drudge of the King, the jailer of hateful Redival, perhaps to be murdered or turned out as a beggar when my father died—for who knew what Glome would do then? And yet, it was a lesson I could hardly keep in my mind.

C. S. Lewis, Orual, Till We Have Faces

• Orual refuses this invitation out of herself and into joy, and later is unable to see. It is only when she makes herself vulnerable and assumes the position of a penitent that the glory of the valley she has journeyed into is unveiled to her. In many of Lewis’ works, he shows that sight is granted through love and humility, such as when Lucy alone was able to see Aslan in “Prince Caspian”.
• In “Letters to Malcolm”, Lewis says that the body must pray too. Though Orual’s heart and mind were closed off and hardened, just by putting her body in a prayerful position, she was granted clarity.
• But in the same way that we go about our own way, even when God reveals himself in love to us, Orual tells no one about her experience, and even lies about it, keeping the people of the kingdom of Glome in confusion.
• Orual then sees the gods being worshiped, and cannot stand it. She goes forth to write a complaint against them, but it turns out to be a rebuke of herself, ultimately. The gods were attempting to draw out her selfishness.

The change which the writing wrought in me (and of which I did not write) was only a beginning; only to prepare me for the gods’ surgery. They used my own pen to probe my wound.

C. S. Lewis, Orual, Till We Have Faces

• As Doris Meyers points out in “Bareface”, we can assume that this takes place in about 400 B.C. The god of love might in fact be Christ Himself speaking to her through a medium she can understand, through the lens of her Celtic religion.

07. “Relating to Orual”

Q. Some listeners have problems relating to Orual, because her self-interest seems so extreme. How can readers see themselves in this and relate more to the character?

• At the end of “The Four Loves”, Lewis says:

Perhaps for many of us, all experience merely defines, so to speak, the shape of that gap where that love of God ought to be. It is not enough. It is something. If we cannot practice the presence of God, it is something to practice the absence of God, to become increasingly aware of our own unawareness, till we feel like men who should stand behind a great cataract and hear no noise, or like a man in a story who looks in a mirror and finds no face there.

• Lewis is, in other words, using Orual to describe that gap where agape love should be, that appears as an absence of God. Not everyone might have as wide a gap, but there is a little Orual in all of us. The fundamental issue in this life is daily choosing “me” or “Him”.
• We must continually replace our images of God with what he actually declares himself to be.
• Matt wondered if Lewis’ choice of medium was effective, since many readers have trouble relating to the character and the setting, and it flies over their heads. Andrew contended that although it is difficult to read, with explanation and context, the truth will be unveiled to readers. This is a truth in Scripture as well, and Andrew alluded to several verses that describe the difficulty of God’s Word.

This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Matthew 13:13

It is the glory of God to conceal things,
    but the glory of kings is to search things out.

Proverbs 25:2

• However, is the book so difficult that thousands have been turned off by it? Unlike Scripture, TWHF has gone unacknowledged for a long time, and most do not know of its existence.
• To hear Andrew speak about this more, listen to the following talk that he gave at the Wade Center.

08. “Is There Another Way?”

Q. Could this have been written differently? Or was this the only way?

• Could it have been done differently? We never know what could have happened. But this is what he chose to do, and once readers understand it, every line is fascinating.

Wrap Up

Concluding Thoughts

• Andrew asks for prayers as he writes his book “By Fits and Starts” with the help of Dr. Diana Glyer. He hopes that this book reveals the depths of TWHF in a new way to modern readers

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